Gravestones that survived for hundreds of years have been reduced to rubble in St Alfege Park.
The headstones which had been positioned around the perimeter wall have been broken up and now sit in a large pile in the deconsecrated church yard.
Greenwich.co.uk understands that the Friends of St Alfege Park have been engaged in removing the headstones over a period of months, although this process was accelerated recently with the assistance of workers from the Community Payback probationary scheme.
The London Probation Trust confirmed to this website that a team from Community Payback has been working to clear the grounds at St Alfege Park. A spokesman commented:
“Part of this work has included the clearance of stone markers believed to be monumental and/or gravestones as requested by a representative of the Friends of St Alfege Park. This has now been completed and we are now working on another project within the grounds.”
Local historian, Horatio Blood, was left appalled by the scene of broken headstones:
“The smashing to smithereens of these historic tombstones is wanton destruction and a terrible tragedy. All that remains are a few sorry stumps, like broken teeth, and the ghost impressions left behind on the brick wall. The Friends of St Alfege Park appear to have succeeded where the rioters failed.”
But there is confusion as to who authorised the removal of the headstones in the park, with Greenwich Council legally obliged to ensure headstones remain safe in what is classed as a “closed church yard.”
Additionally, the removal and destruction of gravestones is subject to controls under the 1977 Local Authorities Cemeteries Act.
Greenwich Council’s cabinet member in charge of parks, Cllr John Fahy, told Greenwich.co.uk:
“There would seem to be some dispute as to what instructions were given to the Payback Team. As this is a Council responsibility I believe that the Friends should not have been involved. The memorial stones are an important legacy. Not all of the Headstones were damaged and I have asked Officers to look at creating a memorial garden where all of the tombstones can be brought together to create a large memorial plaque.”
A request for information on why the work was carried out had not been answered by the Friends group at the time of publication, but a clue may be found in the Management Report of 2008.
It says the headstones around the perimeter wall are prone to vandalism or damage from plants behind because of the gap between the stone and the wall. The report recommended mortaring the stones in place to reduce the possibility of damage.
The authors of the Plan also commented “memorials within the park add an excellent ambience to the site.
“If they were removed, it would significantly decrease the site’s visible heritage.”
The Friends of St Alfege Park was formed in recent years and its volunteers have worked to improve the quality of the park. It has become a venue for live theatre events and the Friends are aiming to achieve Green Flag status by 2013/14.
Update
Conservative Deputy Leader and shadow cabinet member for culture and the Olympics, Cllr Nigel Fletcher, commented:
“‘I’m shocked that this appalling desecration of headstones could be allowed to take place in this way, and I’m glad Cllr. Fahy is taking the matter seriously. Whatever instructions were given should never have been allowed to be carried out, and I hope we will get some answers, fast, on just what happened. ”
St Alfege’s Park is affectionately known as “The Rec” locally. Now unfortunately it will probably be thought of as “The Wreck”.
Hi Rob
Many thanks for the quick reply.
(It was actually via TheGreenwichPhantom that I first found out about this)
Your damn right it has gone badly wrong. Again the work of bunches of preposterous incompetents who are clearly not up the job.
Just what is your cultural strategy for the area Mr Fahey. Something akin to Thamesmead perhaps?
The ability of LBG safeguarding and protecting valuable assets goes from bad to worse!
The recent track record on planning matters requires some resignations:
The park is being shut off and secured with 4m high fencing for an exclusive event totally unsuitable to its role, character and scale. The place will be trashed with the planned stadium and associated servicing crap.
The Cutty Sark is no longer a ship and about to become an ‘experience’ with a cafe resembling a Garden Centre. (I suggest the so called planning committee get on the Eurostar to Paris if they’re so in need a Disney fix).
The Old Royal Naval College and Queens House are now the Greenwich ‘Back Lot’ for Warner Bros and other ‘we’ll have that and stuff the visitors’ film makers.
The excellent Sammy Ofer Wing (by Danish architects who seem to value our heritage more than we do) gets blighted with garage forecourt banners selected from some cheap promotion catalogue.
All this and Chris Roberts thinks that the Ibis is an architectural gem.
Sorry for this ,but more bad news for St Alfege Park.I have been told several Houses in Sussex Court (that backs on to St Alfege Park) have had a large amount of lead stolen.
@ Robert. Yes that is correct. At least two houses have had lead ripped of their roofed this afternoon. It has been reported to the police who have taken an interest. Suggest everyone who loves locally keep am eye out for lead thieves and make a point of strolling round the park and report any suspicious behaviour.
Utterly shocked. I recently visted St Alphege (from Wales) as my ancestors were very much part of Greenwich and many of them were baptised and buried in St Alphege. I had been hoping to “visit” their graves. I knew St Alphege was closed but not deconsecrated (sp). I was saddened to see the stones along the walls especially as some of them appeared to have been put behind a hedge. Most were unreadable due to age and the way they were against the wall – but to destroy them…….it beggars belief.
This wasan outrageous act of mindless destruction
We need to find out what imbecile was responsible for allowing this to go on unchecked
Who issued the instructions ?
Who ‘supervised’ the work ?
Who will be sacked as a consequence ?
Whoever it was could be given the option of repairing all the broken stones.
[Comment by email, posted on Graeme’s behalf]
@ Harriett. Did you find the Welsh slate headstone with a Welsh language inscription? It has been carefully preserved, I suspect by the Friends of the Park, along with the other headstones which retain any more than the odd word of their original inscriptions. Because the slate is impervious to the acid rain which has removed the Inscriptions from the limestone headstones it is as good as new. If you didn’t find it, against the wall in the south east corner of the park, put up another Post here and I will check the inscription for you.
does anyone know who these so called “friends” actually are? are they the same louts who have pruned the shrubs and planted out the flower beds? Was it the same criminal “friends” who bought, built and placed picnic tables in the park ? i’ll bet it was the same vandals who have changed that park from a neglected refuge for noisy aggressive drinkers to a pleasant oasis which families feel comfortable in? because if it is, they should be lined up against those same walls they moved the headstones from and shot. What’s more, they should be shot by all those indignant contributors to this electronic organ who have lifted themselves off their seats and volunteered to improve that park which they seem to love so much.
I reckon the “friends” will live for quite a bit longer
Totally agree Parky.
The friends have done SO much good work in that park, so let’s wait a little bit longer and get the truth of situation before judging. At the end of the day, how many of the poeple complaining on this website have given up their weekends to garden, to raise funding for new picnic tables, repaired the picnic tables when they get vandalised, replace the picnic tables when they get stolen etc etc?!
Very few I assume.
I have now heard reasons from a reliable source as to why the chair of the Friends apparently asked the young offenders to remove the tombstones. Apparently the owner of the neighbouring property complained about children standing on the stones and looking into his garden and the council had earlier refused his request to increase the height of the boundary. Also, apparently the Friends’ wanted more space to have further vegetable beds installed. I have also been told that the greenhouse the Friends’ erected on the grounds next to the removed tombstones was never given permission by the council and will therefore need to be removed. If this is indeed true, it seems that certain members of the Friends have been a law unto themselves. If so I feel so sorry for the members of the committee who are dedicated to the grounds and appear to have been so let down by certain individuals.
@ N J Wicken – if your source is reliable and was privy to both the conversations you refer to between the chair and the neighbour and the chair and the young offenders, tell us who it is and how that source came to be involved in both conversations. If you can do so, we will sll be elightenrd. If you can’t or won’t, i suggest readers ignore your comments. Repeating gossip and hearsay leads only to inaccuracy and prejudice.
I live in the property mentioned and the owners were away almost all year. Not sure when they would have communicated with the chairman about children looking into the garden.
Not that it matters, but I’m almost 100% the reason for the boundary extension was nothing to do with children and more to do with the fact there were attempted robberies on the property after people jumped over the walls.
@Hakinboy, perhaps if the Friends had issued a statement then there would not be the inaccuracy you speak off. It also seems clear from your earlier comment ‘What have we really lost as a result of these stones being moved and broken up?’ that the destruction is not of interest or importance to you. Given this comment and the fact you are using an alias, I wonder if perhaps you a ‘Friend’?
@siobham, even if there were attempted burglaries on the property mentioned, which is indeed an unfortunate and distressing occurrence, the Friends still did not have the jurisdiction to order the destruction and removal of the stones. I can only hope that some sort of prosecution will be forthcoming, and my understanding is that this is currently an avenue being pursued by certain parties.
Unfortunately, and inexcusably, once a group gets together and decides to call itself ‘Friends’ of anything, they become to think they own it. And then they start to
assume everything they do is good and necessary; they tidy, primp, and plant their neat flower beds, and next they’ll dictate who can use the park, or not, depending on the ‘Friends’ prejudices. Something similar happened elsewhere in another SE London cemetery, but thankfully so far the headstones have been left alone.
@ David Porter So do you agree they ought to be shot? And do you qualify to do the shooting?
@Hakinboy. Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t mention punishment, just offered my personal observations on groups of ‘Friends’.
@Hakinboy. I am wondering why you have failed to respond to my comments, but thought it appropriate to offer such unneccessary and uncalled for comments to David Porter.
I can only assume that your failure to deny your membership of the ‘Friends’ means you are indeed one of them, or closely involved with persons on the group.
If this is indeed the case, then perhaps you could enlighten us as to when the chair of the ‘Friends’ will be making his long-awaited statement on the matter?
@ NJ Wicken Waiting for you to tell us about your “source”. Unless you do, nothing to respond to.
@parky, given that my comment was for ‘Hakinboy’ and you have replied, do we therefore assume that these two anonymous identities are one and the same person?
There is certainly a great similarity in terms of tone and content in the posts of these users above. I am now starting to wonder if your real identity may be none other than the chair of the Friends himself.
OK,l the comments are getting silly.
Let’s be clear:
What actually happened? So far we don’t know ANYONE authorised it. I’m thinking that any project undertaken by young violent offenders is fraught with this kind of danger if not properly supervised.
Once we know where the responsibility is then is the time to look at appropriate action. \The most annoying thing here is the lack of information. It smells like a bad fish.
I agree with you Ian on the Hill that the lack of information has been the most frustrating element of this terribly sad state of affairs.
I know that a group comprised of people from the council visited the site on Thursday with, I believe, some members of the Friends.
I have no idea if the chair was with them however, since he apparently only returned from holiday on that day.
I do also agree that unsupervised work of this nature by the inexperienced is far from a wise idea. However I would like to point out that not all young offenders will have been convicted of violence-related crimes.
A new statement from the chair and the friends was apparently being prepared over the weekend, so we shall see when – or if – it ever reaches the light of day.
My understanding is that the group concerned deals solely with violent offenders, but I stand to be corrected.
I am appalled that the Chair of the Friends of St Alfege Park, in his finally released statement, says that they are “now urgently reorganising their work and management processes to ensure that we safeguard the infrastructure of the park”. “Now’?? Does this mean that they haven’t done that in the past? To me, in this statement he only apologizes that the destruction was done, he doesn’t deny that it was sanctioned by the so called “Friends”. I live in Australia but I was born in England and have family from the Greenwich area. Many of us feel that part of us belongs with the history and heritage of St Alfege and I’m shocked and disgusted that this wanton destruction has been perpetrated. Surely, to be a “Friend” must involve some knowledge & interest in the history of the place.
Absolutely Disgraceful Destruction, it is Heartbreaking !
With ‘Friends’ like this who needs enemies….
I was born in the South East and now live in Cheshire and, always visit St. Alfege when I return to Greenwich, my family lived in Greenwich from the 1700’s and, it was our family Church.
I agree with you Peter. Absolutely no excuse possible for this.
Deeply, deeply saddened by the reports of this desecration. Why on earth would anyone think that this was alright? Although I live in New Zealand, my family links go back to Greenwich at least from the 1700’s. Heartbreaking!
This is an absolute disgrace and sacrilige, Those responsible should ALL face criminal charges, where they gave the orders or followed the orders! There is no justifiable excuse for carrying out such wanton destruction.
Jig-saw anybody
Joking aside if the pieces are all there then why not try and put them back together if only to extract the names etc
I almost wish that I could repay their vandalism by vandalising their families headstones!
Many years ago I made the mistake of taking my elderly mother to Woodgrange park cemetery of now noted infamy, where her mother and favourite aunt are buried. We had enjoyed a pleasant afternoon looking at the houses where she had been born and brought up and I thought this would be a nice end to the day. She was quite overcome when she saw the vandalised stones cast around and we had to beat a hasty retreat so that she could sit down and recover from what had been a very upsetting experience for her. Her mother and aunt were only buried in 1939, so hardly ancient stones.
I can, therefore, understand what the relatives of the people here must feel. What possesses people? Have they no feelings? No brains? I would like them to have to sit down and piece together all that can be pieced together and from their own pockets pay for the replacement or refurbishment.
There has been more than enough time now to identify the culprit, but his (her?) name will never be made public. More than likely the person has been transferred to another area of responsibility, probably with a handsome salary increase and a nice bonus. After all, it’s only council taxpayers’ money.
@Eddie Gould. The destruction of these monuments was not ordered by a member or an employee of the council.
It appears this was in fact ordered by the Chair of the Friends of St Alfege Park. The Friends are a separate voluntary group who, somewhat ironically in this case, look after and improve the park.
Further details on this can be found here:
http://www.greenwich.co.uk/news/06197-friends-of-alfege-parks-chair-apologises-for-damage-to-gravestones/
It doesn’t matter if they were weathered and illegible. Someone had taken the time and trouble and expense to lay a memorial to a loved one. The stones should be left alone and not desecrated like this. This is typical of this Country today, absolutely no respect given to the living or indeed the dead!
Vandalism by supposedly ‘normal’ people.
They’d be the first to complain, but because they thought it was okayed by council, or the friends of the cemetary, must have thought it was ok to utterly destroy something so precious, that can never be made whole again.
Would it be possible to put them back together????
Maybe our vandals could give it a go.
This is terrible tragedy. It’s such a shame that the official and semi-official bodies involved could not have prevented this happening. They are are all chasing around to excuse themselves. How would anybody involved feel if one of the headstones had belonged to one of their family.
I was only made aware of this distruction by “The Lost Cousins Newsletter” I feel as others, but deep down I feel sick, I have many relatives buried at Greenwich, do we have any idea as to whose graves have been distroyed? If so surely the details should be given in as much detail as possible so that the families involved are aware. Surely the priority now is to repair & replace if necessary these Graves, I know it’s not the same, but what else is there to do? We need to try and move forward and make sure that this NEVER happens again and try to make good for the devistation that has been caused. Debate the whys and what fors later, the first priority to me is to sort this mess out.
Speaking from the other side of the pond I can only hope that the idiot (idiots) responsible for this are sat down with pots of glue and told that until they fix everything they are not going anywhere.
So, using that logic I would guess that the bones should be dug up and chucked into the pile of the smashed stones since they are not identifiable.
Damage is done. Can it be put to rights? As I looked I wondered if there are photos taken by locals with the stones in the background that might serve as a guide so that they might be pieced together and replaced in their correct original positions. To me this is much preferable to a memorial garden with large memorial plaque Too much like “Well we got that bunch of rubble out of there and pasted in this little wall out of the way”
I had always thought London was a city steeped in retaining heritage. Sights like the Greenwich gravestone junk heap are common here in Christchurch, New Zealand, at present – but we have an excuse. Well, three excuses, really, namely a 7.1 magnitude earthquake (Sept 4, 2010) and two 6.3s (Feb 22 and June 13 this year). But at least our gravestones have been left lying where they fell, possibly to be repaired if and when funds allow.
On top of that we have local and wider government bodies ripping down our city’s heritage buildings, seemingly irrespective of their ability to be repaired from quake damage. Heritage destruction wouldn’t happen in England, I thought, until seeing the photos of the Greenwich desecration.
Our Munyard ancestors who lived in and around Greenwich, Camberwell and Deptford from the mid 1700s well into the 19th century must be reeling in their respective graves. Was there no one who questioned what was happening?
It’s worth pointing out, for the second time, that this was not a graveyard. No bones are in there, they were removed presumably a century ago. That’s why the stones were arranged around the perimeter.
I don’t want to downplay the stupidity of this, nor how outrageous it is that we’ve had no proper explanation of what the Friends thought they were doing, or what other memorials have been removed in the past year or two. But this place stopped being a graveyard many years ago.
These comments are a bit out of context. I’m not defending the smashing of graves but we do know that it wasn’t intentional and it happened in error. Those who actually live near the park also can attest that gravestones were placed around the far walland as such have not marked graves in many years. the graves in fact were destroyed during the second world war (if my elderly neighbour is to he believed) and so technically the basketball ct, flower beds, pathway and picnic tables are all on the ‘real’ graves.
Also, the Friends have really done fantastic things in the park. I’ve only lived in greenwich two years and have seen the change in that time. This year residents enjoyed fetes and picnics in the park thanks to their efforts. There are nice floqerbeds and bird boxes and feeding tables.
No bones in this churchyard is one thing but why the DESTRUCTION of the stones?
There seems to be NO reason for it. could the stones not have been placed in the area where they now lay broken and destroyed until someone with a brain decided what to do with them?
I am a family historian and know I have family buried in this area. I am coming to England next spring to research and photograph sites and hope to do grave stone rubbing. I hope none of my ancestors’ are buried in St. Alfege’s.
With “FRIENDS” like this I don’t think this church yard needs enemies.
@siobhan: You state “we do know that it wasn’t intentional and it happened in error”. Unfortunately we do not know this at all.
I am sure that the vast majority of the Friends are as upset by this as everyone else, but it does appear that their Chair, Mr Tim Delap, ordered the community payback workers to remove the stones.
Furthermore, it appears that the removal of stones was taking place before the youth offenders were involved. Further details from the statement by the London Probation Trust can be found here:
http://www.docklands24.co.uk/news/st_alfege_park_group_regrets_and_is_distressed_by_damage_to_headstones_in_greenwich_1_1073451
This states: “I can confirm we have been working at St Alfege Park clearing the grounds. Part of this work included the clearance of monumental stone markers and/or gravestones –as requested by a representative of the Friends of St Alfege Park. This has now been completed.
“It should be made clear the removal of stones had been underway for some months before we attended.”
The above appears to make it clear that the Friends were removing stones long before this recent mass demolition. It remains to be answered how many were removed exactly.
According to the council park workers, who I have spoken to, it would appear that the now missing stones along the wall where the Friends’ new greenhouse and vegetable beds are now located were amongst them. The outlines of removed memorials can be clearly seen, but the council workers have no idea where the removed tombstones were taken.
There is an interesting post by ‘Hakinboy’ from 27 September above. He is either a Friend or very closely associated with them and from my previous post exchanges with him also appears to be identical with the poster ‘parky’.
In reference to a Welsh slate headstone in the park, he states: “It has been carefully preserved, I suspect by the Friends of the Park, along with the other headstones which retain any more than the odd word of their original inscriptions.”
His posts clearly show he has ‘inside knowledge’ of the workings of the Friends and I am now starting to wonder if this means the stones that had inscriptions which were no longer legible were discarded by the Friends.
Unfortunately the lack of clarification by the Friends group makes this all very unclear. In my opinion the Friends have seriously damaged their standing with this disaster. This is not only due to the original action, but also their subsequent silence on the exact turn of events.
Their Chair, who ordered the destruction, is still in position and they have commented very little.
Catherine Grove in a post on this website states ‘I would further urge the Friend’s to consider whether in the eyes of the community the credibility of the organisation as the caretaker of the park can be fully restored if their current Chair, who seems to have personally issued the instructions to destroy the headstones without committee approval, continue in his role. It is my opinion that he cannot, but ultimately the decision whether Mr Delap stands down or not is one for Mr Delap and the Friend’s to make.’
I do agree with her, but if I were Greenwich Council I would not allow the Friends to continue doing anything in the park until this has all been resolved and a new management committee heads the Friends.
I would also be interested to hear the comments of the committee Chair of the St Alfege Restoration Appeal. I know they are separate to the Friends of St Alfege Park, but the church and park are connected by both history and locality. It therefore rather ironic that they are trying to restore the church, when another group is smashing up its history round the back.
@ Paul. It is my understanding that the bones were indeed left in place, just that the headstones were relocated to the perimeter walls of the park and the grounds then relandscaped into a park. So it is still very much a burial ground, all-be-it a deconsecrated one.
Have these so-called “Friends” bothered to record the names of those buried in the cemetery? I spent hours going around Tower Hamlets graveyard hoping to find a headstone for my great-grandfather who I cannot find on any census! Some groups are doing great work recording the burials in the cemeteries which is a great help to those of us trying to find lost relatives.
I agree with adam Pollock.
My ancestry comes from Cornwall and I over the years seen damage to graveyards in canada the USA and here.
You can painstakenly restore them, with the right team and painstaken work they can be reassembled, but they will never be the same.
This is where all work in these areas has to be supervised. This is our history, Our people saying this is where I am now and I was here on Dates ?.
This truly is sad to see.
Pamela, I can save you some time: here is the Tracing Your Ancestors page on the St Alfege Church web site
http://st-alfege.org/pages/roots.php
“all the St Alfege registers are now held at the London Metropolitan Archives.
The covering dates of the registers deposited at the Archives are
Baptisms 1616-1975
Marriages 1616-1989
Burials 1615-1914
Also, registers of confirmations and services, electoral rolls, charities records, inventories, parish magazines and miscellaneous material.”
An apology from the perpetraters, for this desecration and disrespect for the dead and their descendants would not be enough – actions speak louder than words. They should fit all the stones back together like a jig saw and be made to record all the details of the deceased which should then be inscribed on a memorial for people to look at in perpetuity. Or at least have the results archived in say the London Metropolitan Archives.